Keep on keepin on.

I brought this over from the General House Analysis thread, because I discuss Dick's behavior more than anything, and I wanted to make sure it goes in the right thread. Hope that's ok.





See< I don't get that at all. I often hear the phrase, "it's just a game" and "his game play" or "my game play" (depending on who's talking) ... and not just in reference to this season/show.

But as far as Dick is concerned, I don't think it's "just game play." I think he's a major a-hole, narcissistic, violent and possibly unbalanced psycho. Only my opinioin, of course. So with that viewpoint, his behavior is just him being him. And to reward that? Not good, IMO. DaniSpawn is a little Dickette in Training, taking pleasure in other people's suffering at the hands of her father (Exhibit A: her scary skeletal bitchface grin) .... so by default, I feel I have to root for Zach Rabbit. Maybe he didn't put himself out there compeltely, or try to win comps at first, but that was strategic – unlike Dick & Dani's behavior, which was just personality and not strategy, in my opinion. And yes, the whole, "I Survived You" (thank you Clay Aiken I love you) theme for Zach, able to sneer in the face of his abusers .... good for him!

moved from the Dick thread, because you're talking about more than just Dick here. ~tooletta

I warming to Zach, slowly, I am keeping an open mind, but I'm not quite there yet.

The Jury house if full of people with a chip on their shoulder because most of them didn't play at all, bugs me, they get to vote and they are mostly going to vote based on who rubbed their boring selves the right way. PPFFTTTT! Other than Eric, who's in the Jury House who even knows what playing BB is about?



Ah see, I can't pick by default, they have to have game play, I watch for the game not to bond with the hammies or like them as people over another. The closest I've ever come to that is with Janie and damn if she doesn't just light up a room for me, but she played hard too, had she just been a pretty smile I wouldn't have thought she should have won. I am not dismissing Zach winning for good game play, but I am holding out to see how well he keeps playing. That last HOH comp showed him in a pretty good light. I may not want to be within a 100 feet of a Danoto in real life, but as for playing to win, I have to give them a thumbs up. I don't see the game as who would I want to be around, I see it as who is good enough to shove their way to the end.

moved from Dick thread and merged with previous post ~tooletta

thank you tooletta

I'm also going to disagree with the idea that Zach hasn't played the game. I don't think he's been aggressive and I don't know that I agree with his gameplay (for one thing, he whines that no one talked to him for 40 days, but I don't think he made much of an effort until Jameka to get to know anyone in the house which is why his social game is somewhat lacking - he spent a lot of time lecturing). I also wish that he had had the guts to use the veto at F5 and get Dani out, trusting Eric or not trusting Eric - at least he knew Eric wasn't winning comps. But he's playing the game now when it matters most. If he wins this final HOH, he'll have won 3 of the last 4 HOHs and kept himself in the game by virtue of winning comps, the same way Daniele has kept herself in this game.

I actually think that Zach did play the game.. even if his gameplay was to try to lay low for a while. IIRC, alot of the LNC thought that Zach was throwing comps for a while early in the game.

My problem with Dick's "gameplay" is the same as watching_waiting's. I don't think it's strictly gameplay. They had that one episode with people who know Dick that all admitted, that it is how he really is.

If I may?

The concept of "Damage Over Time" comes into play with Zach's apparent strategy. In World of Warcraft there are characters (The Donatos) that act as Tanks and they are built to take DOTs. But other characters (just as valuable and also in the battle) play a different role and fight in a different way. In fact, a full frontal will make you a much bigger target. The goal is not to die for your game, but to make the other guy die for HIS game.

The camera hasn't spent a lot of time getting to know Zach so I can't say he has or hasn't been playing full out because he hasn't revealed his thoughts much until these last few weeks. Now that he's talking to the camera? Oh he's playing, believe me. Creeps me out sometimes.

The D's have dominated old style, but Zach (and I can't say this for sure because he is the invisible man) seems to have been playing like a man used to an online team effort.

I guess what I'm saying is - The D's played HARD, hammering away at opponents. It looks like Zach played SMART - graphing players assets and liabilities week by week and aligning himself with the high value players.

FerfeLaBat makes a great point. It's one that I've been kind of mulling over for the last little while.

One one hand, you have a team of two people who win a bunch of comps. It seems like they always either control HoH, PoV, or are in a strong alliance with whoever is 'in control'.

On the other hand, you have a person that plays the bulk of the game without winning any comps and without being in any really strong alliances.

Even though the first pair are busting out and winning a bunch of comps, I would argue that the second one has to work harder to stay in the game simply because he/she doesn't have the protection that the first one has.

For the game to work, you really need both kinds of player. The in-your-face gamers attract more heat, but the other players have to work to try to keep a target off their back (or try to make other people's target larger and brighter).

The difference between the Donatos and Zack to me is the Donatos have had a plan along. I know some disagree that Dicks strategy is his aggression, please I am not arguing that. That has been what he has said and what he has stuck to all along.(whether that is the reason or not who knows). Dani has been strong in comps & good at letting daddy take all the heat. She has also been consistent.

I have liked Zack since early on, even when it wasn't but a few people on that train. I still say he "Zacked" his way up to the F4. He had no clue what he was doing and made no sense at all when he used to try and talk strategy with people,bless his little bunny heart. I think back to some of his theories and they were so bizarre. He has totally stepped it up when it counted. So in my opinion he deserves to win just as much as Dick or Dani.

I will be happy with whoever wins out of the three. All will get some money no matter what at this point. I think Spawn will slide daddy some dough if she makes F2 and he doesn't.

I look at it like this - would either one of the Donatos have made it this far if they had been the only Donato in the house?

Zach is having to essentially take them both on at the same time. If he wins HOH, he deserves it all.

His strategy, grounded in playing possum, is often used in long distance running. Stay with the leader, conserve your energy for the last leg and go all out. The trick is to have enough at the end to go all out. Sticking close to Dani was the best thing he could have done, especially after Jessica let Eric play for her all that time. One of the biggest challenges I see all players facing in this game is their own issues. Zach's social issues might have done him in had someone like Dick not been in the house.

I think we've seen time and again in this show and in Survivor, that lying low is not only a valid strategy, but a desirable one. I think you really only have two options if you want to win - either lie low and "float", or be a competition superman (or woman). It's MUCH harder to carry the second one off, because it's physically much more difficult and because it makes you much more of a target. Consider how many of the winners of these type of shows have been the fly under the radar types.

That's very true, gforce. 'Floater' is not a dirty word in my book. And if you're a Zach, without a strong support system in the house (or the skills to develop one), it's really the most logical way to go. I don't think Zach is just there by dumb luck or by the grace of the Donatos. He floated and he did it well.

I agree with Gforce that floating is indeed a valid strategy, especially in a social game. Someone in some post somewhere (sorry to the originator, too lazy to go find it), said that "floating" became a dirty word in season 6, and I think they're right. If you're in too strong of an alliance, you're a target. I'm not saying Zach completely strategized his way to this position, a lot of it has to do with dumb luck, but I don't think he just stumbled his way into F3 either.

It's impossible to say for sure if they'd have made it this far without each other in the house. They both would have played differently with different circumstances. This is the hand they were dealt.

I still believe Dani played the best game. I still believe she should win. I also believe that the jury is full of bitterness that would reward Zach for his bumbling along not knowing what was going on until week 9 or 10, when Dani and Dick told him what had happened the previous weeks that he had no idea about.

I'm also still holding out for a Donato final 2.

I've always thought that under-the-radar players are playing the game smarter. This strategy tends to put you in the position of having odds of not being nominated at least modestly favorable to you in any given HOH/veto. While you'll never be totally safe, you're also not wholly at risk either (like Jase was during the infamous six-finger plan). Since the game is all about numbers, having the numbers on your side most of the time is a huge edge.

I've never seen the payoff of being a balls-out player as sufficient to compensate for the risk involved (except in the final few competitions). Trying to dominate ends up putting you on the bad side of the numbers more often than not, and you can't play that gamble that many times and expect to keep winning. Dick and Daniele only managed to pull this off because they successfully talked Eric and Jessica into an F4 deal - without that, there's no way they would have survived the crucial F8 to F5 period where many high-flying players go down. The influence of AP over Eric and Eric's subsequent influence over Jessica was a confluence of circumstances that had the highly unusual result of players acting against their own interest. If I were playing this game, I wouldn't want my strategy to depend on other people making dumb choices. It worked for the Donatos, but it was definitely a one-off.

I don't have a problem with the Floater Strategy, either. Sometimes it bothers me the way the hammies say "Floater" like the player is something they found in the toilet. Didn't this start around the time of Kaysar? The balls-out players think their strategy is the only admirable one but obviously it's not the only, or best, way to play.

The fact that Zach managed to stay in the game this long when everybody was actively shutting him out of their plans and meetings, etc., is pretty cool.

This is what's making these last comps interesting for me. Dick continues to act as if they are a team and going to be splitting any wins 50/50. I've never heard Danielle agree to it. She's a much better competitor than he has been so wouldn't you think Dick would just throw this second comp? Hmmm?

Floating as game play and floating because you have no game are two different things, I'm not sure about Zach's game play yet. To me he seemed to float with Jess because he had a thing for her, when he got burned and realized that Jess would mess around with Eric over him he switched to the other little blond girl. Not saying I'm right, but that's how I preceived his game play so far. I'm impressed with the way he played in the comp last night and his wanting to help Dick after Dick let go.

After the competiton last night, while Dick was collapsed on the floor, he and Dani were taling that the DR had told them they'd checked the tape of the last HOH and the blue ball. Dani said Jameka had actually won the competiton. I wonder what, if anything, they will do about it.

I agree. I am not convinced that Zach's "game play" would not have been radically different, had he not been shunned/ridiculed/disliked/unfairly convicted by nearly everyone in the house all summer long.

Hmmm...is that a paradox, then?

They will probably do nothing .. they wouldn't want to screw up their precious DD F2

Just to play devil's advocate - if your original idea for game play (i.e. - to align with others) isn't panning out because you're being ostracized by the rest of the house might you not switch to plan B? Maybe that was his plan B. If so, then he's done a great job!

Two things--

Regarding Jameka's blue ball--I'm not sure how Jameka won that. I think, whether someone cheated (unlikely) or whether in went in their by the will of God (more likely, bizarrely), as far as I could see she didn't have it full, so it was not a win. Unless she actually had another green ball in her hand that she would have put into the full tube before Zach put his in. But, I just don't recall hers being that full. Maybe it was, but it just doesn't seem likely to me. And, I think the reason for that is I think she would have made a bigger deal of it at the end of the game. I could be wrong, I just am not sure I believe that.

The other thing regarding Zach is I think he has been playing since the beginning. I think he's done some things that I wouldn't necessarily agree were very smart. But, he was in the alliance at the beginning and then he was ostracized when that alliance broke up. I'm unsure how he could have gotten himself out of that. I think he tried on more than one occasion to do so, but for some reason it just didn't work out for him. It's one of the great mysteries of this year's BB--why did everyone hate Zach so much? A few theories have been floating around, but I just didn't really buy any of them. I still don't understand the motivations except for group think once one or two people decided they thought he was "creepy."

So, I really do think he tried on more than one occasion to game up and it just didn't work out for him. So, he had to change his tactic, become a floater, and stay under the radar for awhile, which worked much better for him. I think that shows adaptability. Then when the time was right he stepped up again to win competitions. And, I actually don't believe Jameka helped him find God. I think that was all part of his strategy. I agree with Dick on that one. I certainly don't think Zach deserved Dick's verbal abuse for it. But, despite being ostracized, I think he has done everything in his power, whether in his goodbye messages or his interactions, to be on as good terms as possible with the people that left the house. Not only that, but we've seen for weeks brief glimpses of his "master plan" which was to bring Dick to final two and beat him. The moves were risky, but so far he's done everything towards that plan, as can be seen when he didn't use the PoV to get rid of Dani. I think he thought that was the best way to get to F2 with Dick. At the time I thought it was a stupid move. But, maybe not so much. I think if he pulls off his master plan, it shows adaptability, taking HUGE risks, more than I would have done, and I think he deserves the win for that based on gameplay.

My point egg-ZACH-tly. Paradox!!

The way I see it, if you make it to F2, but the jury hates you and refuses to give you the big bucks, you must not have 'played the best game'.

Big Brother is a social game with two parts. You have to be slick enough to make it to F2 without getting kicked out, but you also have to sufficiently work the houseguests that are sent to the jury so that they are more willing to give you the money than they are willing to give it to the other guy.

A hamster may be a comp animal that no one is able to throw out of the house, but if they all hate him/her, that hamster probably didn't play the best game and doesn't necessarily 'deserve' to win.

Danielle, for some reason, chose to be bitchy to houseguests who were being voted out, wither while they were still in the house or in the 'good-bye' video. For some reason, she wasn't considering the fact that those people would choose who 'deserved' to win the big prize.

I don't get the creepy, or Jameka's racist BS against Zach, geeky, oh yeah but geeky can be pretty cool. But I haven't seen the game play by him, but I am wavering and I am rarely this unsure by this time in the game. I'm really looking forward to Thursday to see what happens.

I'm always unhappy and unsure at this point in the game.

haha! Yeah, me too. The last time I was happy and sure was BB3. I was a huge Danielle fan and really, really wanted her to win. But, Lisa winning, while disappointing, wasn't horrific. She was a nice enough person I suppose.

Although, to be honest, I guess I'm not unsure at this point in the game. I'm pretty sure who I hate. But, unhappy? hells yeah.

What took them so long to figure this out. They only had to look at a few minutes of footage (granted there were quite a few cameras). A few unpaid interns, a couple hours and they should have had the answer.

Anyone have the link that shows DaniSpawn falling off her carrot? Thanks....

I think some (not all) of Zach's nerdiness and convoluted strategy talk was a camouflage -- i.e., "this guy is so stupid that he's not a threat!". As a result, there were always bigger fish for the other players to fry; they could pick off dumb Zach later on in the game. I'm also sure that some thought that absent D&D, he would make a good F2 partner. I mean no one would vote for him to win.

I don't think Zach ever tried to play stupid. Nor do I think that he actually is stupid. Inarticulate? Yes. Socially awkward? Gawd, yes. The house was full of superior, entitled beings who assumed Zach was stupid because he wasn't them.

I think Zach played the only game that was open to him. Did he mastermind every move that got him where he is? Of course not. Everybody's strategy is affected by the actions of the rest of the hammies. Sometimes that's to an individual's benefit, sometimes not.

I'm bitter and I wasn't even in the house! Dick and Dani have ruined BB for me, possibly forever. I don't think it's fun to watch people abuse others and then sit back and enjoy the pain they've caused. I would have believed that it was a game, if privately they had expressed regret for what they had to do to win. Instead, when the two of them are alone, they gloat and talk about how much fun it has been to hurt the other players.

After I"ve watched them for too long, I always feel like I need to go take four or five showers. The only comfort I take in this is, when it's all over, we will be done with them. They will have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives.




One big disadvantate floaters have to overcome is that there is never anyone watching your back.


merged posts. Double-posting is only allowed in the recap/screencap threads. ~tooletta

I sense a general feeling that Dick played a better game than Zach, and on the surface it might seem so. But as some have stated Zach's lack of game may have been a strategy so he is undervalued. At the same time, Dick's 'strategy' worked, in part, because Eric was forced to help him via all the America's Choice stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dick made himself unlikeable for several reasons and it worked to his advantage- it always does because when you get to a point in the game people WANT to keep the jackass to go against. But I think he overstates how great he played because he got a heck of a lot more help that he knows.

I soooo much wish this was during Sho2. I wanna see Kaysar and Howie!!!

Never mind. They're on a separate feed for an interview like Janelle last week. Still, screencaps would be much appreciated and drooled over.

I'd normally agree with this. However while each of the jury members were actually in the house, they all hated Zach (Jen might be the exception here, but who knows with that one). Until he won a couple of competitions, nobody felt he was a threat nor did they think he had been playing the game, including people that were hanging in sequesterville.

Maybe they'll surprise me. Maybe Eric will talk them into rewarding gamesmanship (I think if it were a Dani/Zach final 2 and Eric's vote were his own, it would go to Dani because he didn't appreciate Zach's strategy). Maybe up is down and left is right.

Aww, Howie on the feeds. I miss Howie's entertainment value in the house. They should let him loose in the house to liven up the final 3 so it's not so frelling boring.

There is one co-worker that I've always known is a BB fan and I have to be very careful not to spoil too much, which is so hard. Anyway, she can't stand the Ds and is pretty disgusted by CBS and the producers, as am I. I was talking to another co-worker of mine and I mentioned the show and how much I hate the potential final two and he says, "The Donatos" in one of the more contemptuous voices I've heard in my life. BB brings people together in their disgust for the players and the show. Kinda sweet.

The comp last night made me nervous. I thought they'd slip off their carrot and hurt themself or if they fell into the bar or something. I don't know why this one made me more anxious than others but it did. I guess I'm not usually so nervous that someone will slip and crack their head open or something. I know it's probably all padding and soft edges but I didn't like it.

From the recap thread.



For me, there is just too many little hints that The Donatos have been assisted in their gameplay. They are well known, so I won't list them again. However, as far as the above incident, I point you to the following post, by FerfeLaBat, just before the second part of the HOH.

Here

They may have told him that in the DR. But that still doesn't mean it's insider info. Seriously, it's been the exact same sorts of competitions in every season at final 3. Dick knew that already. They'd been talking about it here and there all week. In fact, they explained this whole thing to Zach a week or so ago in a throwaway convo that I didn't see recapped.

I don't mean to throw the topic at all, but didn't anyone else notice how scripted the visit to the jury house was? There was NO way (in my mind) that, that was the original footage. If anyone has it tivo'd, take a look at Amber's reaction when Eric came marching through, unbelievable. Jen's looks from when she left the house to go to the jury house had changed a lot, in my opinion. Anyone else think that footage was taped way, way later than what they tried (half assed) to fool us with????

Now here's a point to ponder...

I'm surmising that since DICK!! won part 2 of the HOH comp, that Dick and Dani actually COMPETED, as opposed to one conceding to the other. Now, since we reasonably KNOW that Daniele would never, EVER concede a comp to her Dad, that DICK!! actually had to fight to win part 2, correct?

And, if THAT's true....could it be true that DICK!! actually wants to win the $500K himself, as opposed to letting Dani win it. Could it be that should DICK!! win part 3, that he takes ZACH to F2 over Daniele, figuring he can beat Z in F2 and also figuring he can't beat Dani in F2??

Now, that might be worth tuning in for...to see DICK!! win final HOH and boot his own daughter to the jury.

Earlier in the week. Dani and Dick were discussing what usually happens for the last three hoh's. Dick has made mention many times that he knows the jury members more than Dani does. After all their talks, I think that his trust in this was amplified. I think he won on purpose because he thinks he has a better chance at beating Zach in round 3. He did talk about letting Dani win if there was a car involved though.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the "race card" D-ick was trying to play against Zach.

As a woman of color, I think that most racial remarks are made out of ignorance. It's the weight behind the words that matters most to me. Living in a non-metropolitan part of the South, I witness a lot of that ignorance first hand. It doesn't bother me unless there is malicious intent behind it. What Zach said, to me, seems more slanted towards the trying-to-be-funny-like-Dick end of the inappropriate spectrum than a full on racist comment. For someone as socially awkward as Zach, he's taking cues from someone he perceived to be socially successful (keep in mind this is earlier in the season). As far as the hip-hop/Jam's music comment, I didn't hear that one first hand. But it could be said that Zach could just have easily said I don't like "Jess's music" if she was the on into hip hop.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that D-ick, being the one to constantly make race an issue, is truly the racist one. By trying to stir up hate connected to race, wouldn't that be the very definition of a racist?

*Ducks in anticipation of disagreement.*

Thank you for that. Being white these days often means never knowing what is safe to say. I used to live in a very metropolitan area where I worked with people of every race and background. I now live in a small suburban town and have never heard people say such racist things in my life. They think it's normal apparently. I have given up correcting people. Anyway - in the great scheme of things, I feel that if the worst racist remark a person has ever made is the phrase "very white of you" then they are NOT racist. It's just a phrase. I have heard it used - but usually in a sort of ironic way.
Dick is an asshole. His whole bashing of people involves grabbing one tiny element of truth and building it into a huge lie. Isn't that what they say the devil does? Not that I think Dick is the devil. I still just think he's a self-centred asshole.

It continuously amazes me some of the things that come out of that man's mouth..... In my own experience, I just cannot imagine..... Born in Chicago, I lived in the L.A. area for 22 years (by way of Miami) and the one thing that struck me as the most positive about L.A./Santa Monica was the non-racist attitude of everyone that I came into contact with ~ My son was only 4 years old when I moved there and it was so positive - all cultures living together in harmony. Don't know where Dick was born/raised but his attitudes are far beyond anything I have experienced..... I feel sorry for both Ds if they think their behaviour is anywhere near normal....

I agree it was Zack not knowing it was bad. I myself just found out where Gyped came from(thanks Beehoppy). So it happens.

Blaming Dick for Zack's mistake is going a little far. Dick was the one that told him it was racist and not a good thing to say. Zack is grown and should be accountable for his own actions.

I wasn't really blaming D-ick, per se. OK, maybe a little because I hate him so much.
I just think that D-ick used Zach's bone-headed comment and turned it into something ugly. That comment didn't start in an ugly place.

Dick didnt wait until he and Zach quit getting along to find his comment wrong. He told him the night Zach said it. Just wanted to point that out. At that point, Dick already knew how sensative Jam was about race. She had complained about Zach wiping his hand off and complaigning that the rap was her music. It wasn't that he said he hated Rap....just that he assumed and called it Jam's music. That was what pissed her off according to her. Also, she got mad at Dick for telling people to eat up...there are starving people in Africa. Everyone has a different tolerance and some people are more easily offended than others. I also think it was different for Jam because she was the only African American in the house. This may have made her more sensative than others might have been.

RC I agree with you. It was a dumb thing for Zach to say, but I didn't interpret it as Zach being a racist. It didn't strike me as malicious, it was Zach being typical verbal diarrhea Zach. If someone's going to be called a racist in the BB house this season, I'd say Amber (the jewish comments) and even Jessica (the asian comments) rank way above him.

Wait. Dick thinks he can beat Zach in F2, but Dani CAN'T??

Is he HIGH?